At this point, Irma Thomas needs little or no introduction to New Orleanians or the readers of OffBeat. The quintessential entertainer, for over four decades she’s been regally, and rightfully referred to as “The Soul Queen of New Orleans.” Over the years she’s absorbed several of the blows the music industry tends to inflict, but she’s always managed to bounce back.
With the exception of Fats Domino, today Thomas is the most popular artist with roots in the classic period of New Orleans rhythm and blues. She maintains a loyal and diverse local audience, as any of her New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival performances prove. Young, old, black, white, New Orleanian, tourist, Republican, Democrat, Tulane grad, LSU grad: Thomas’ appeal is universal. With a new CD ready to hit the market, the vivacious songstress recently invited OffBeat into her kitchen to talk about it and more.
The new CD is coming out in August?
Yes, in the middle of the month. It’s called My Heart’s In Memphis: Irma Thomas Sings Dan Penn Songs.
You go back a long way with Dan Penn?
I sure do. I was recording Dan Penn songs before I knew who Dan Penn was. [Thomas recorded several Dan Penn compositions during her 1967 Muscle Shoals session which was released on Chess.] He also wrote some songs on my last solo CD, The Story of My Life. It was an interesting session. We did it in this little studio [Sounds Unreal] that looked like it used to be a store. It was a funky-looking little place but it had a great sound. You’d never think it was a recording studio from the outside. If you were looking for a recording studio in Memphis, this would have been the last place you’d look. It was located in a regular neighborhood.
In the past you’ve said finding good material to record has been a problem.
It’s been that way pretty much since the 1960s. Most writers with a track record for writing hits want to give their songs to artists with a track record for recording hits. I’ve never had any hits. I’ve recorded some good songs, but they weren’t necessarily hits. Dan, though, seems to be able to write songs that I can present.
You co-wrote a few songs on the new CD?
Yes, I wrote a couple of songs with Dan but so did other people. Marvel Thomas, Rufus Thomas’ son, played Keyboards on the session, and he co-wrote a song, but Dan was the nucleus for most of the material. The songs are great. It’s a little different than what people are accustomed to hearing from me. They aren’t as much staunch blues as they are rhythm and blues. There’s even a song that could go country. We kind of stayed in the middle of the road.
Was there a Memphis sound people would associate with Stax or Hi Records?
No, not really. It’s not going to be easy to pigeonhole this record. But once again that’s an old Irma Thomas trait: where do you put her? It could go in any direction. It doesn’t have a sound that would distinguish it from any place in particular. It has a very universal sound. It’s a mixture of ballads, up tempo, medium tempo, and, like I said, a song that could go country. It’s not a song that sounds country in a country sense, but most country records today don’t sound country anymore.
Scott Billington produced you again?
Yes, but Dan Penn was there and helped out.
You did some post-production here at Ultrasonic Studios?
There were a couple songs where I wasn’t particularly pleased with my performance and I wanted to do them over. I was introduced to some of the material at the studio and I wasn’t completely comfortable with what I sang.
Don’t you usually get sent demos before your sessions?
Yes, but even though I was sent a bunch of tapes, there weren’t a lot of songs that I selected. Then it turned out that there were a lot of songs that I liked and we had to narrow it down to just 13. When I got to Memphis, Scott and I listened and relistened to what was going to stay and what was going to go. Consequently, there wasn’t a lot of time to learn the material, so I was going through a learning process as we laid the tracks. In many cases that will work fine, but in this particular instance, I wanted to redo the vocals because I didn’t have enough time to live with the material like I wanted to.
Is it hard to write songs for you?
It might be. A lot of times I can’t get a song from head onto a tape even if I like it. If a song slips me I won’t record. But as far as a writer who hears my voice, I don’t know what they hear because what I’m getting isn’t exactly where I’m at a lot of the time. I listen to songs, and it’s not like I can’t sing them, I just don’t feel them. I prefer songs with a story line, but they have to have a good rhythm feel as well. Often you’ll get a song with a good story, but a lousy melody. It’s difficult to chose material especially when you’re up against a recording session. I’d rather forego a recording session rather than do songs just to be singing them. That’s just time and money wasted doing something you just don’t feel.
Do you consider cutting covers?
Actually I cut a couple of my old tunes that Dan had written years ago [on the new CD]. One was an incomplete song that I recorded the way he had written it then, but he added another verse and a bridge so I had to learn the darn thing all over again. He decided to fix it and it gave the song a lot more meaning. So we redid “Zero Willpower.” The other [cover] was “A Woman Will Do Wrong” where he changed a couple of lines near the end to make it stronger. I also covered “I’m Your Puppet” that he wrote for James and Bobby Purify.
Irma ThomasHave you set any expectations for this CD?
I don’t set expectations anymore. I’ve learned over the years to go with the flow. Hope for the best and see what happens. Rounder has said they’re going to do some PR and there will be a [CD] release party. They’re going to try to make some connections with some major [radio] networks but there’s never a guarantee about that.
Now that Rounder is distributed by a major label (MCA/Universal/Mercury) has that helped your releases?
I think it has. A lot of people used to call me and tell me they couldn’t find my records, but I think that situation has been resolved.
You just came back from Greece?
We did the Blues Way Festival 2000 in Athens. It was a long ride but an interesting place. The audience was very appreciative, but it was very hot and dusty. If somebody opened a car wash there they’d make a fortune because I only saw three clean cars the whole time.
You mentioned problems with some of your musicians on the trip.
Well, some musicians tend not to have loyalties anymore. Most want to be stars themselves. I don’t have problems with that, but don’t commit to a job and then at the last minute change your mind and leave me hanging. That seems to have been happening to me a lot lately.
How did Jazz Fest go?
I guess all right. I didn’t read any reviews but then I guess no review is better than a bad review. [laughs]
What’s your schedule like now?
We’re pretty busy. I’m not working a whole whole lot, but if you average it out it’s about two weekends a month. The beginning of the year was pretty busy but it usually slows up in the summer and then hopefully picks up again in the fall. For the first time in a long time I don’t have a July 4th booking. But this business has always been feast or famine. Sometimes jobs come in early, sometimes last minute. I don’t count a month a wipe-out until it’s past. I don’t get a lot of local work any more mainly because I’m not that cheap. [laughs] But I feel I’ve paid my dues, so I don’t have to lower my financial standards just to keep busy. Besides I’m more into giving a quality show rather than a quantity show.
I read where after you got the Grammy nomination in 1992 [for True Believer], work actually dropped off.
God, I didn’t get any work. I didn’t raise my price, the only thing different about me was that I got a Grammy nomination. Maybe people assumed I raised my price, but I went months and I’m not joking, with not one gig. I didn’t get one until near the end of the year. In fact that was the first time in a number of years that I didn’t have a New Year’s Eve gig. So that kind of bust my bubble as far as getting a Grammy nomination, I mean I appreciated getting one, but they don’t mean anything worthwhile. Even though I got another one [in 1998] with Marcia Ball and Tracy Nelson, it didn’t mean an increase in work for me either.
Maybe you should hope this new CD doesn’t get nominated?
Well, if it does, lets hope it actually wins a Grammy because that would actually pull some weight.
They say many are called but few are chosen.
There you go. But I feel blessed to be still performing. As far as I know I’m one of the few entertainers that still has a career going back to the 1960s and I never had a million-seller. “Wish Someone Would Care” made it to number 17 in the charts [in 1964] but that didn’t make it a million-seller. In fact I had a few records with that company [Imperial] that were in the Top 100, but back then artists didn’t always get an accounting of how many records they sold. I’ve seen a lot changes in the business over the years but that’s the nature of the beast. You’re either a part of it, or you stand on the sidelines and watch it go by. A lot of times I was on the sidelines and some things did pass me by. But at the same time I’m grateful because a lot people that I was in the business with are not around today.
Have you been happy with the way record companies have handled your older material?
It’s been a good thing. I’m often surprised when I’m performing and I get requests for songs I’ve haven’t sung since I did them in the studio. I wonder where people get these CDs. I get asked, “Why wasn’t such and such a hit?” Sometimes it’s because nobody ever listened to it until it was reissued. I think some of those songs aren’t dated and they would do extremely well on the pop charts if only they would get played. Unfortunately, not everything is legally reissued. In fact I just got a fax telling me a about a CD with some of my material on it that’s being sold on the Internet.
You’re on the Internet too?
Yeah, I have a young lady that put together an Internet page for me. I’m going to be talking with someone else who runs a major Internet site about hooking up with him too.
Not to rewrite history, but Tommy Ridgley has been given credit to discovering your singing potential in 1959 when you were a waitress at the Pimlico club. Actually, you’d auditioned for Harold Battiste at Specialty Records much earlier?
I’d auditioned for Specialty and for Minit. I couldn’t have been much more than 13 when I auditioned for Specialty [probably 16]. Harold listened to me and said he liked my singing, but that I should come back when I got a little older. I auditioned for Allen Toussaint at Minit but they didn’t get back with me. Tommy [Ridgley] had said he could hook me up with Joe Ruffino [Ric and Ron Records] but I didn’t believe him. In fact, I didn’t go to the studio the day he said they were going to record me. The next time, Tommy came by my house and took me to the studio. That’s when we cut “Don’t Mess With My Man.” Then I went to Minit and the first record was “Cry On.”
How was your stay at Minit?
Recording technology was a lot different then. When somebody made a mistake, you had to stop because there were no overdubs or spicing. We did a lot of homework before we got to the studio at Allen’s house on Earhart Boulevard. That eliminated a lot of stop and go in the studio. When I recorded at Cosimo’s, the only time we’d stop was because of a musician’s error. A lot of times the guys in the band didn’t get the material until the session and they didn’t get a chance to run it down.
Most of those sessions were four songs split between two people. We weren’t doing albums then, we were recording an A and B side for a single. The first Minit session was four songs though. ["Cry On," "Girl Needs Boy," "It’s Too Soon To Know," and "That’s All I Ask."] After that it was two songs per session. I remember cutting “It’s Raining” and Allen handed me the lyrics to the second verse in the middle of recording the song. But those [Minit] records were just regional hits, and I mean regional in the strictest sense. Beyond Pensacola, they never got any airplay. It’s only in recent years that “It’s Raining” has become popular. When it got in the movie Down By Law, it finally started getting national popularity.
But those were big records in New Orleans. Besides Fats Domino, I was the only other artist that had two-sided hits here. Every one of my Minit record got flipped over. Sometimes I had three songs in the New Orleans charts at the same time. I remember “It’s Raining,” “I Did My Part” and “I Done Got Over It” were on the local charts a long time. Those were busy days and there was so much good music around then.
Bill Sinigal told me he often went on the road with you during the Minit days.
Robert Parker played saxophone in that band. He looked after me like he was my father and made sure nobody messed with me. Bill would go out on the road with no gigs.[laughs] I’m serious. We’d leave New Orleans and have maybe one or two gigs booked. In the meantime he get gigs as we went along by calling ahead to the next town and set one up. That’s how he did it. We had a Florida run where we did all the towns along the Gulf Coast and then come home. Anywhere there was an armory or a small club we played.
What’s going on at the Lion’s Den [the club Irma and her husband own near the corner of South Broad and Gravier Street] these days?
Oh, it’s hanging on. Like other clubs, we’re feeling the pinch of inactivity by not being in or near the French Quarter. Even if you spend a lot of money advertising, it doesn’t guarantee that people will come out. Jazz Fest was good and we had a big turnout every night just like at Mardi Gras. Somebody bought the [Falstaff] brewery [located across the street]. That was supposed to bring some life into the neighborhood, but other than fixing up the office buildings, nothing much has happened yet.
Are you any closer to graduating from Delgado?
Three more classes and then I get my associate degree. If I don’t do it this summer, I’m gonna have to do it in the fall. But, better late than never though. I have enough hours to graduate, but I changed my major from sociology to business. By changing my major, I had to add some required courses. I have 79 hours and I only needed 71 to graduate, so I’ll wind up with a lot more hours than I need. One of the required courses was algebra. You might think, “Who needs algebra? I know how to reason things out.” But it was required. I hated it, but I took it, and it was good discipline.
Are you still bowling?
I bowl once a week at the Sugar Bowl/Orbit Lanes. Hopefully it will be there awhile [The Sugar Bowl/Orbit Lanes are currently for sale] because I don’t want to travel too many miles just to bowl. But I probably would because I like bowling that much. The league I’m in is called “Leftovers” and our team is called “Show Me.” How that name came about was at the beginning of the year. There was a lady that was supposed to be on our team. At the last minute she decided she’s bowl with another team. At the time she said she’d wind up with the highest average in the league. I said “Show Me.” As it turned out she didn’t but we kept the name “Show Me.”
What’s your highest score?
It was 279 and I bowled it with a house ball in New York. My highest league game was around 270. My average is 173.
You’ve got a very important birthday coming up next February.
I’ll be 60. I’m going to pick a charity and have them use my birthday–just like I did on my 50th–to stage a fund raiser. Hopefully between them and my church, they can raise enough money to do some people some good. I haven’t picked the charity though because there’s a need for so many things in this city. It’s difficult to pick just one charity because they’d have to share some of the proceeds with my church [the First African Baptist Church]. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done there before the building needs total restoration. My church is just as historically significant as St. Louis cathedral and it’s one of the oldest black Baptist churches in Louisiana. But it’s not easy to get people off their checkbook to make a donation because we’re a black Baptist church.
Why don’t you just do a benefit for the church?
’Cause Rev don’t want me to do a rock and roll show to raise money for the church. He’s a very stanch Baptist minister even though he doesn’t object to sharing the profits from a show. I tried doing a gospel benefit once but that got to be too political. But hopefully we’ll find some people and work things out.
